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Some summaries etc of past talks held at the venue,
The Southwestern Arms (upstairs room) , 36 Adelaide Rd, St Denys, SO17 2HW
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typing and spelling errors and misattributions in the following write-ups.
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Monday, 11 July, 2016, Dr John Broughall, of Antibiotic Research
UK, Antibiotic resistance & Associated Issues
26 people, 1.5 hr
I'll try and keep as jargon free as possible. 2 bits of jargon
I will use is . For those who are not microbiologists, I'll
refer to a gram-stain, an old Victorian way of looking
at bacteria under a microscope. Divided into gram-positive
and gram-negative GN, how they stain on a slide. The gram-negative
are basically the bad guys. Carbopenyms are the last line of defense
by antibiotics. If you're in hospital
, seriously ill, and you get an infection, a carbopenim a type
of penicillin is what you'll be given if all else fails.
I do volunteer work for Antibiotic Research UK. I'll dicuss is there
a problem , where's it coming from, why the traditional route
of developing drugs is not working , antibiotics and how our little
charity hopefully might provide one way forward out of this mess.
The problem. Looking at the big picture and e-coli, typical GN
organism, plotted out are the cases reistant to carbopenyms in
2009 and 2014. These are hospitalised with e-coli.
If you're in hospital with pneumonia or whatever in the
way of a bad infection, they found out what percentage of the
e-coli were resistent to CP. This is the last-line defence.
In 2009 basically NW Europe not too bad at 0 to 5% are resistent.
2014 the picture is changed.
Enlarging on Greece, AB are freely available in Greece, you can
go into a pharmacist there and buy CP , over the counter,
no questions asked. The internet is anothe rwonderful source
of ABs. Bugs travel in people , you can't build a
Berlin Wall to stop bugs travelling .
In SE Asia, the newly emerging tiger economies , like Singapore
and S Korea have huge ABR problems. Basically because the sytems
are not under control, its available and not being monitored.
Another bug Entercocus Faesium? and ABs , in 2009
not so good as the CP, but by 2014 the situation is getting
worse. We are getting a movement across Europe from SE
to NW as people travel. These bugs are not what you might go
to your GP about with a urinary tract infection and have some
Oxymalin?, these are seriously ill people,
hospital aquired infections.
The super-bug MRSA, you can bring it under control. A skin infection.
We were awful, we as medics basically were not cleaning our hands.We were using
soap and water , the rest of Europe was using alcohol scrubs.
There was a hell of a lot of publicity abiut this and we
reduced the incidence, you can drive it backwards.
Holland has excellent infection control procedures. They screen
people going into hospital . Are you carrying this, if you are,
you're shuttled to a side ward, we don't do that.
They are taking strong control, not built a Berlin
Wall but effective control.
There is a problem ,its niot Daily Mail hype , its not the world will
end tomorrow , but its real, there is a problem and we should be
CP was the last line , last ditch defence. If that failed , there
was a horrible AB called Kolystin? which is years old.
It came out in 1959, it was never used because it destryed the
kidneys , really bad side-effects. They discovered that if you
have a CP-R organism you could use colistyn, not routinely
or willingly but you could cure a patient who had a CPR infection.
Unfortunately they've now found an organism with a resistance gene
in meat from China. There they use 12000 tons of Kolystin,
fed at a low level to animals in China. There is this observation
that no one really understands. If you give low level AB
to animals on the farm , pigs, cattle poultry, same in all,
they have about 10% better growth rate. You can search the
literature but no one understands how it works. Its not
therapeutic its not curing any disease. In 2011 5% of meat in
China carried this , in 2014 in 3 years, its now 25%, carrying B
with this resitant gene. Unfortunately 10%, 15 million tons
of pork, 17 million tons of poultry is exported.
So not only exporting your chicken fillets but also the
bugs on that. They've found this resistant organism in
Denmark now, just come over with the meat.
Finally people are getting hold of the idea that you
shouldn;t be using last ditch AB on farms.
In 2006 allegedly the EU banned the non-therapeutic use
ABs on farms. In Germany 2011 there is still twice as much
used on farms as was used in man. In germany 12000 tons of
ABs used on farms , 6000 tons used for human medicine.
Continuing to feed , 2 uses on farms, curing sick animals
ok, and this low level of feed inclusion. Some countries
have banned it , like Sweden, no longer do it.
Use it to cure sick animals but not in farm feedstock.
This morning I discovered a new superbug, hot
off the press, a mold, a Candida a near relative of
Candida Albicans of thrush, sore throats and vaginitis -
Candida Aurus, it kills people a 60% death rate.
Untratable with the types of drugs that you'd treat a
fungal infection . Candida is a yeast , very different from
B. ABs work on bacteria , don't work on yeasts -
you need antifungals . It has affected the Brompton Hospital,
the European centre for treating Cistis Fibrosis.
They shut the ICU for 2 weeks anda deep-clean
and its still there .
People are very sick, probsbly imuno-suppressed , perhaps having a
lung transplant because of CF and here is an opportunist
pathogen, getting in there and is not treatable.
I'm talking of B that have become resistant, this is just a yeast
that is resistant to ABs and anti-mycotics .
We are getting mor eof these super-bugs.
I like Darwin. Nothing special, its just evolution in
practise. Its us versus them, chemists develop different ABs
, you select out resistant bacteria that are there anyway.
Chemists get clever , they develop something thats resistent
and the B just select further strains to resist them.
Some pics of petri-dishes.
We as humans have 10^12 cells , each of us.
You carry 10^13 microorganisms , 10 times more cells in you
than cells of you. So vast numbers of B, a micron
long, to select a few that are slightly different in their
mechanism for overcoming the AB.
Agar gel with little paper discs on the surface, with small
amounts of AB impregnated on them. The culture grows, the AB
diffuses out from the discs and you get zones of
inhibition, inhibiting the growth of the B.
Basically a large zone is good , a small zone is bad,
some not affecting the B at all.
Another perti-dish with the AB in a central well
rather than a disc and you can see isolated dots
they are colonies of resistant organisms, they're growing
within the zone of inhibition. 10^9 to 10^10
individual B in each of those colonies , so again
vast numbers of B. So give an AB and chances are
it will select out one that is resistant.
For an ICU ward, typically a patient with pneumonia,
if its a resistant form of pneumonia, the mortality
rate is much higher. This is serious, the main
content of my talk, I'm not talking about GPs
giving ABs for colds when they shouldn't,
this is hospital infections, people who will die of infections.
That is the problem. There are only 2 classes of ABs developed
i nthe last 30 years. Why isn't big bad pharma developing ABs to
solve the problem. a man called O'Niel was commissioned by David
Cameron , to write a report. They did get hold of this issue,
and what is going wrong.
A cash-flow diagram, hundreds of millions of dollars and the
time to get your pay-back. It is 23 years , its crazy a huge spend
and eventually you get your money back. No one would put their
money into something that would take 23 years to develop,
there must be better ways to spend your money.
Basically ABs don't make money for pharma, there are far more profitable
ways they can make money. They have to support shareholders, employees
etc, they're not charities. Oncology is the problem and the answer.
There's been huge advances in oncology, the treatment of cancer.
There is deep understanding of the mechanisms of what
goes wrong, when we get cancer and 1 in 3 of us will at some time
in our lives. About 50% survive now, which is great , but as we age ,
our immune system goes off. Getting older you make fewer antibodies
and fewer of them, so your self-defence mechanism falls to pieces.
Thats why cancer is primarily a disease of old age and we are
all living longer.
Lets compare an oncology drug and a new AB.
The oncology drug will have the expectation of a very high
market price. NICE, the health economic gurru in Manchester.
A drug goes on formulary , approved for use, if it costs less than
30,000 GBP if it gives you 1 years quality of life, that is the criteria
they use. It is quality of life, its not just 1 year confined to
bed and ga-ga , it must be a reasonable quality of life for a year.
By and large if a drug comes in at less than that it will
be approved by NICE for use, above that figure and it won't.
When given NICE approval, there will be a rapid uptake by the
oncologists. They will use it on their patients. Cancer drugs are
used for months. Unfortunately you will get resistance to
cancer drugs for th same reasons like Darwin , the cells become
resistant to the cancer drug, but its only in individual
patients so it doesn't spread. If I get cancer and I get resistant
to the cancer drug, it doesn't spread to any of you,
it stays in me. They're viewed as lifesaving wonder-drugs.
There is huge patient pressure groups for use of such drugs, the
Germans use a drug against breast cancer why not us,argument.
Even if its vastly expensive.
By comparison ABs are as cheap as chips. Most ABs are off-patent
now . When we do get a new wonder aB, thats taken 23 years
to develop or whatever, the micro-biologist , the guy doing the
prescribing will only use it when its absolutely necessary.
They won't have GPs using it , they may use it sometime in th
future, compared to the oncologists who will buy it immediately
for his patients, that are no longer responding to
previous drug regime. AB will only be used for 2 weeks , it
will work or it won't , but only short term and bacterial
resistance, bugs become resistant and they spread, from patient to
patient. So unlike the cancer patient, here the bacteria can spread
their resistance. There are no patient pressure groups and certainly
no wonder-drug halo effect. I worked at the end of my career in
the medical department of a pharma company.
This is CP, Meropenym, 7GBP for half a gram, stuff in Sainbury's costs
more than that. An antifungal at 30 GBP , they are rediculously cheap.
and a new drug developed in the USA, it costes 3,500 dollars a course.
They never bothered to launch it in Europe, saying we know
people won't use it, they will always go for a cheaper alternative.
Now look at the oncology drugs , 2 old ones Desataxyl? Fracataxyl?
, off-patent probably but they are still pushing 1000 gbp
instead of 30 gbp. these are the wonder drugs, using molcular
biological understanding. This was the stuff I was involved with.
A course of that cost 75,000 GBP. There are only about 150 people in the
UK who could benefit from that drug, but virtually all were on it.
Because they'd not responded to A therapy, resitance emerged to B, so
Aceptris? thats the wonder drug so yes, it worked, but look at the cost.
So if you're a bean counter in pharma, which one will you
go for. We understand oncology, we know whats working, we know what
we can develop and it will be sold.
Market share v sales growth, oncology is at the top
all the rest are at the bottom and ABs do not even feature
in this plot.
The global market for ABs is 40 billion , of those only a tenth
are on-patent. That is when big bad pharma is actually getting money.
Recouping the R&D money while still on patent, before it goes
off patent and can be made cheap-as-chips by generic houses.
The papers keep saying we're being ripped off by big pharma
bu tthey have to get their money back somewhere, and that is when
its on patent. This tenth is equivalent to just the sales of one top-selling oncology pharmaceutical product.
Al lthe ABs are nowhere to be seen really in terms of sales.
Public perception of other pharma groups.
A CT scan of before and after, all the black dots are
tumours , "my" drug abcetris , kidneys, bladder and throat ,
some dots present but all the rest have gone after 12 weeks
of treatment. A wonder-drug it did drag people back from
death's door . Thats why the NHS said 75,000 GBP for a course of
treatment was worth it, as chances are this drug would save someone's life.
Another example , a vaccine developed for menengitis B, a horrible disease,
affects about 100 kids a year. So they said we'll offer it to
new borns , up to 12 months, but we won't do a catch up
ovedr the period , 1 to 12 years, which is when this occurs because the
numbers don't justify it, the economics don't work.
800,000 signatures , saying give this vaccine , it is public
perception. There is nothing like that for ABs.
I started my carrer in hospital path labs and the pharma
rep , would come along to the microbiologist who made a 1-person
decision , yes we'll put that on hospital formulary.
Pharma was happy, consulatant happy, patient happy
unfortunately those days have gone.
Policies are now the rule, in UK hospitals, absolutely correctly.
You don't use your big guns until you really have to. If a new
AB comes along its reserved until when you really need it.
Now there is a huge collection of people involved in the decion
making , not just 1. The cancer drug situation, post-NICE ,
if NICE has approved it , then yes we'll use it.
There is now the antimicrobial pharmacist , a new animal,
they goi around the wards checking on who is prescribing what
and how much. If too much , or too advanced, or too
pwerful an AB the junior doctors get their wrists slapped.
There is now huge control over which ABs are used and when.
An AB Trust Policy. What ABs to use , in which clinical
situations and when and you have to talk to a consultant
microbiologist before you use it.
If you're a junior medic you can use these, if a senior
medic you can use those, and those others only after talking
to the consultant microbiologist. It is 112 pages long,
just concerning ABs. I wouldn't argue against this for a second
bu tthe result is , by the way we won't sell any , we'll
not get anywhere near decent price if we do and by the
way they will not use it .
Put those 3 together and that is why the pharmaceutical model
is not working at the moment.
A bactria, its not easy to find new targets. Ideally with an AB,
you want to kill the AB but not kill you.
So you are looking for where there are differences between a bacteria
and your cells. Bacteria have rigid cell walls, penicilins will
attack this, kill the bacteria by destroying the cell-wall
synthesis programme. They also have slightly different mechanisms with
enzymes, rhibozomes and their nucleic acid multiplication.
The number of targets waiting to be exploited is limited , now.
For pharma chemists, the obvious targets have gone.
In fairness to PM Cameron, he got hold of this issue.
If it doesn't get under control , if we don't do something ,
then we can forget transplants, forget hip implants, replacement
knees, pneumonia . If you have a hip implant you will be given
prophylatic ABs, to cover any infection getting into the new hip.
Imuno-compromised people , like kidney recipients, people having
cancer therapy, the list is endless, they are all given ABs to
prevent infection. This is what he was talking about, having to return
to the pre-AB era , when people died of infectious diseases,
we've forgotten about it in the last 50 years. He engaged a
guy called O'neil , an economist, to write a report .
Obviously if it was easy then someone had done it before.
So public awareness , don't expect ABs if you go to your GP
with a cold. Sanitation and hygene - The CP bugs have come from
Asia basically. The first case was a lady who went for a cheap
tummy-tuck in New Delhi and came back carrying an organism
called The New Delhi CP producer. Look at the hospital
and there are open sewers next to it.
As I said , by good control , of handwashing , we did drive it back.
ABs in agriculture and environment - yes, we have to do something
about that. You never see a happy farmer and if it gives a 10% growth increase
, for just a bit of AB in the feed, then wow.
Alternatives, like rapid diagnostics, all good ideas but there is no
If you want pharma to invest billions you have to remove
the profit and sales volume from R&D. Because if they will
lobb in billion dollars, they will want they're money back.
Thet will not get they're money back as there are more profitable
routes. so we have to break the link between success in terms of
sales volume and R&D investment. That is the problem, was not
rocket science, but how you do that is another issue.
So he said we could have a levy on companies if they don't
invest in AB R&D, pay or play charge.
Or set up a global action fund, an innovation fund,
investing 3 to 4 billion dollars annually. Are any of these
feasible, I don't know.
To get pharma globally , to work together , I doubt it.
The O'Neal report came out May 2016, explaining why we are
not getting any new ABs.
AB Research UK, was set up in Yorkshire by a Prof Garner
who is an oncologist but is most concerned about ABR.
They've come up with a novel way at looking at this.
We need to revive old ABs, that bugs have come resistant to.
The approach we are taking is, if we have an amoxocilin resistant
e-coli , they are producing an enzyme that destroys the oxymocilin
and allows e-coli to multiply.
If we have an inhibitor , that inhibits this enzyme , and then
it will allow the amoxicilin to work. So you are not developing a
new AB , just something to do the inhibition .
So you are putting 2 and 2 together . What is novel, we are not
setting up a new chemical company, we are screening existing
chemicals that are in the pharmocopia for activity like this.
Pharmocopia are large libraries of chemicals where they
know the toxicity, the pharmakinetics , how it behaves in the
body, going up and down in the blood stream. We've commissioned the first set of resistance screening
to see if any of these existing chemicals wil lhave this activity.
Its not pie in the sky as there are existing examples of this ,
amoxycilin-tabulanic acid ? is used in combination
with pipa??tazebakta. We're taking the blunderbus approach ,
get all these pharma chemicals , but used for other things,
not for ABs or therapy and screen them for this activity.
Our first screenings in the lab , on petri dishes
, not with animals . Putting ARBs along with AB to see if we
can get this effwect. We're not looking for new chemicals or trying
to identify new targets, we're not trying to become big bad pharma.
We know the safety profiles of all these chemicals, the compounds are
available, we're subcontracting the wet microbiology to third party
companies. There is only one paid employee in our charity
and that is prof Garner, who takes a nominal sallary, the
rest of us are volunteers. We hope to have the results
of the first screening in a few months time. Then what do we do,
I don't know, get some results first of all.
Anti-biotic Research South is about to be launched, anyone willing to
volunteer please spread the word. Leave your email address and we
can keep you in touch with developements as they happen.
Antibiotic Research UK http://www.antibioticresearch.org.uk/
I think we will be having a publicity launch in London , perhaps the
Science Museum . We've raised about 400,000 GBP to date, because this work
is not cheap.
Isn't it a case of supply and demand. If deaths rocketed pharma would soon
jump on the bandwagon?
And 20 years later you'll have an AB
The political forces would not come to bear down?
There are phase 1,2 and 3 clinical studies. 1 is bugs on the
bench and animals, 2 is very limited numbers dose-defining ,
how it reacts in the blood , 3 is full blown clinical registered study.
Another company i worked for, bought in an antibiotic from phase 2
studies , it was very active in the test-tube .
They thought as it was so active in the testtube, great we
can use a lower dose as it was quite expensive.
Anyway it failed clinical studies and that was half a million
dollars down the tube.
Its uncoupling reward and risk and the reward doesn't
exist for ABs at the moment.
On hospital aquired infections , you mentioned Holland
and there screening process. What is the return time
from sampling an incoming patient to get the
result through . Also along those lines , we had a speaker
here a few years ago , a patholgist. Every day of his working
life he was horrified seeing all these dirty outside
visitors coming into his otherwise nice clean
hospital. He expected to see something like foot and mouth
measures used on farms where necessary,at every entrance and exit , but nothing like
that seems to have happened, would something like that not work?
First question, 24 to 48 hours, its just gardening. Take a nose swab
, place on a petri dish and see what grows. Startrek technology,
zap, zap xap doesn't exist and will not exist in my lifetime.
Until 20 years ago , in hospitals, they were using bath soap
and water, the medics and nurses to clean their hands.
They were supposed to clean them between seeing you in your bred
and me in my bed, they didn't. One of the prjects I did was a
handwashing system once. They washed their hands when they went back
to the central nursing station to talk to their mates.
That was unmedicated soap and water. Then they went to medicated
soap , disinfectant soap. Now if you go to a hospital you will
see alcohol scrubs, but its voluntary.
But foot and mouth procedures are statutary controls, if you fail
to do it , you'd be prosecuted if you didn't put your feet in the buckets?
Maybe cattle are worth more than us.
No hospital has gone to that sort of extent, afterall its not
With my hand-washing monitoring, we went to a hosp[ital
in Switzerland , there the medics had a little alcohol
dispensers in their pockets and every time between you and me they
would go through a handcleaning process. That was an anathema
to the uk, thats why our MRSA rates rocketed.
Holland the little green (is good) island in that graphic.
Go into a hoospital in Holland , swabbed and screened and
shuttled off to an isolation ward, if carrying.
We don't do that. The huge Nightingale wards have gone ,
but still multi-bed wards in the uk.
Do they put you in a holding area while they wait the 1 or 2
days for the screening returns?
Basically yes, and thats how they kept it down. Whether we could afford
to or want to , is another matter.
Do the alcohol washes work?
Yes, apart from spores. The little diagram I had of a bug, alcohol
will kill that , it basically dissolves lipids, the balloon
membrane that keeps the internal bits of the B together.
Its totally non-selective, you don't get resistance to alcohol.
But with a spore , that is like a seed, they are totally resistant
to alcohol . C-dif , the other bug, that is a spore so will not
be killed by alcohol, but by and large MRSA, e-coli alcohol will
Fungal type things are spores?
No they have thicker cell walls , i'm not sure what the alcohol
killing efficacy is with yeasts.
Anything else of use?
Alcohol is fine but tramps come into London hospitals
and drink the alcohol dispenser contents, that is very much an issue.
Alcohol goes off quickly, it doesn't smell, its not really an irritant
and is very efficacious killer of bugs.
With soap and water , is it the same mechanism, just not so
effective . I believe soap mixes with otherwise hydro-phobic
materials, like lipids is it?
No , soap and water is very inefficient , cleaning B off your hands.
You might get a tenfold reduction , but whan you see how many
bugs are on our hands, it doesn't make much difference.
You watch surgeons scrubbing up and they use Chlorhexadene
antiseptic soaps , the hand washing procedure, for 5 to 10
minutes. A quick rinse after the gents, makes you feel good but
Clean your hands, you wash off a proportion of all
different types of bugs, but some are not harmful , do the
nasties take up the space perhaps of the now absent good ones.
Would it make sense to encourage more of the non-harmful
to crowd out the baddies?
It would be, yes. This is the problem with C-dif, the horrible bug
you get in nursing homes , I'll call it projectile diahorhea.
That happens when a patient has been given a course of ABs
, that cleans out the gut, more or less, and allows the C-dif
to grow up in the absence of all the usaul. We're all probably
carrying it , if I swabbed any of you. They are survivors
because they are spore formers and without the other B ,
to hold it in check, they grow up.
With the esception of spores are the B carried that much by air
, particles of moisture, separate from hand washing?
Yes. Go back to the 10^13 micro-organisms and 10^12 of you.
You're a zoo, do the housekeeping, a lot in the hoover is
skin flakes, carrying B etc
What is the duration for on-patent and when does that timing start?
It depends when pharma registers it, goes public with it, I think
its 17 years, from that point , but they'd have to register they're
molecule pretty early in the process, so they get priority
and no one can come in and develop the same molecule.
Then you've got 7 or 8 years to get to clinical trials , so the amount
of time pharma can "make hay" is quite limited. O'Neal said lets give
them a bit more time, bu that will not really solve the problem.
The Daily Mail headline , we can buy a drug at 10p ,why are we being ripped
off. Its not all about marketing or all about sales , there is a huge
amount of R&D and the number of successful drugs is quite low as
a percentage of the starting array of possibles.
As far as I know , individual IP or copyright is 70 years aftdr
the death of an individual, a big difference 70 to 17 years?
I've always been told its 17 years and internationally
agreed structure. Then you have the generic houses that don't invest
in R&D, fine , thats their business model. Thats the molecule , you've
disclosed all the info , we'll make it.
The ABs given to anuimals in farming , don't they test the meat
before it goes to the public, a mandatory waiting period?
I think there is , there was a Panorama programme a couple
of months ago. I didn't realise , their using advances kephlosporins?
to treat a cow with a bad hoof , because its cleared quickly ,
so the milk she's producing can be sold on. This is a kephlosporin
#that should be reserved for hospital use. The problem with ABs and
milk, if you're making cheese or yoghurt, the last thing you want
is ABs i nthe milk, as it will kill the fermentation process.
O'neal said we must decouple sales and R&D, yes very true, but how to
do that I've no idea. I'm sorry farmers but you must stop using it
Even if we did that in the UK , which is highly unlikely,
would it happen in China?
No. n fact Cholistin? 11,000 tons of it on their farms , in fairness
to them, they said we don't use it clinically. Presumably because they
don't bother with people with CP resistant perhaps.
Bu tthe west says, hang on , we need this one , and I think they are
gewtting hold of that idea over there now.
Do ABs get onto the land and runoff into the watercourses?
Thats something O'Neil identified, looking at waste from pharma
factories and farms , excreted , landing up in dung heaps and
lagoons, acting selectively on the B ther, yes.
Is that a danger then?
Its an issue he's raised but I've not gotten hold of that,
but anecdotally like the tummy-tuck woman and open sewer
, putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5 perhaps.
You can buy ABs openly i nGreece, a member of the EU, you can
buy Meripenym ? a CP , from a Greek chemists. Ridiculous , especially
as you have to administer intravenously. I hate to think what is
going on ,Asia as well. South Korea and Singapore have particular
issues with ABR, perhaps because the hospital AB policies have
not developed .
Is this something WHO has taken on board, a global approach?
It is , but you have the disconnect between private investment and
enterprise . We want a better car, more economical car and we
buy it. A better AB that tackles these organisms and no one
buys it, for very good reasons. You wouldn't use that unless
you really had to.
With ABs used in farm animals , are there documented
examples where humans eat the meat ?
In Holland, is there more pigs than Dutchmen. Pig farmers
carry more MRSA, than the rest of the Dutch population because
of the use of aBs in the pig food. I'm not sure if they get infections,
but if you swab Dutch farmers they have mor eMRSA than the rest.
The Kolistin use in China, they've found it in meat imported
to Denmark, from swabbing the meat and the resistance mechanism
is there o nthe meat.
If they fed farm animals only with ABR type ABs would that be
totally ineffective at giving this added 10% growth?
If you feed farm animals a low-level of ABs, they grow 10%
quicker than ones that don't get the ABs.
I'm not sure of the therapeutic usage and the non-therapeutic
use on farms.
For humans on a course of ABs its sometimes 3 days, or 5 or 7 days,
why are they different.?
Usually its a week minimum. You should continue on through the course.
If you plot the AB concentration in your blood, it goes up then
down , take another pill it goes up and then down. So there is a
chance the B , in the nadir , could start multiplying again.
You start a course, feel better , so stop taking them , thinking
ooh the remainking may be useful in the future. Thats not
right , you should complete the course.
Lets say you didn't finnish the course,does that now resistant
AB live in your gut or do you pass it out in the toilet?
The AB will go , with excretion but the re is a chance , you may
have selected an ABR organism , if you haven't killed the very last
one and that will grow up again.
How does that get out into the general population?
I'll leave that to your imagination. Coughing, shaking-hands,
whatever. It'll be in your flora, you're a zoo.
Even on a bus-stop seat or wherever?
Is this the same problem as for people not completing courses
Yes. TB is a real so-and-so, because it has a very long cycle
to multiply . E-coli is 20 min and you have 2 of them, TB
takes weeks to multiply. You have to carry on because you kill
B when they're multiplying.
MRTB? is now a big problem?
Yes coming from East Europe , don't ever go to a Russian jail.
The 10% growth for farm animals, you said no one j=knows how.
Could research be done on another method to do similar?
You read the lit and its killing sub-clinical infection, doing
this or that, no consensus. Its an observation going back
30 or 40 years
Just seems a good target for research?
Are those animals generally more healthy ?
I've no idea
Would organic farming sidestep this issue?
Don't get me there. The poor old cow witrh its bad hoof,
doesn't get ABs, they get 10cc of homepathy fluid instead.
Silver is interesting. In the old days before I was born ,
and you had ocean liners, they used to keep the fresh water sweet
by putting a lump of silver in the water tanks. It actually
Antibacterial. Go back to the pic of the poor bloke in hospital
with tubes everywhere , colloidal silver will not deal with that.
There isn't a magic bullet that big bad pharma , like high-dose
vitaminC , peroxide , bacteriophages etc is ignored because there is no money in it.
They wash fish and meat in food grade peroxide?
Yes but they're dead. Peroxide will kill B beautifully ,
also kill you. I've had hydrogen peroxide on my finger , there will
be a white burn mark and stings like buggery.
Monday, 08 Aug, 2016, Kristian Strutt, Soton Uni: Geophysical techniques in
archaeology, their application, and then some of the recent discoveries at sites researched here at the university.
17 people, 1.5 hours
My background is not in physics. I'll be talking about some of the
methods we use in archaeology (A), the application og geophysical (G)
methods , look at a couple of examples of the researchwork a tthe
Uni over the last 4 years, in Italy and Egypt then some closer to home that
we work on with our students.
So one instrument is a vertical tube wiuth a datalogger attached to it.
And its more modern version, a sort of induction look that looks like a
ray-gun. Different methods of measuring either magnetic susceptibility
or local variations in the Earth magnetic field.
In addition 2 probes on a frame and a datalogger, an earth resistance
meter. Or one with 6 probes , which is a multiplexed resistivity
instrument. And also an automated multiprobe resistivity
meter, running off into the distance.
Then the sled or cart , dragged or pushed along the ground.
That is ground penetrating radar or ground probing radar.
So propogation of a signal through the ground or passa signal
through the ground or measure changes in the magnetic field
all of which allow us to prospect for A remains.
We have atoms in ourselves and all objects that produce a magnetic
field based on the spin of the electrons. Its that change, as you
walk over the ground that essentially you are measuring in any
buried objects . For the Earth, we don't have a uniform amount
of magnetic field, cause dby the conduction currents in the
Earth core , that create the magnetism. All in the magnetic presence of
the Sun. So a sort of bow-shock wave of the Sun fluux pushing the
magnetic field out. Its a very variable thing that we're trying to
measure. We've been measuring the declination of the Earth magnetic
field for a number of centuries. A map from 1698 where the changes
in the core is measured over the surface of the Earth.
Its always changing. A plot , taking all those declinations , from the
17C to the present. You can see that the north and south magnetic poles
move. As an aside , this is one way of measuring the age of something
that has been fired and left in situ. The labs at Fort Cumberland
do this. So kilns or furnace on a A site , you know were in
situ, you can take them and measure the orientaion of the magnetic
field produced by the object and use a calibration curve,
based on the changes to the magnetic poles, to date the last firing.
Sothe objects we investigate produce their own localised magnetic
effect. So when we are surveying, we have the Earth magnetic field
and this local change , caused by the A. A number of things can
cause that. If an object is heated above its Curie Point
, the object demagnetises and is left to cool in the presence of
another magnetic field , such as that of the Earth, it will
have a stronger magnetic signal for the instruments we use.
We also have changes to the magnetic susceptibiliies of soils,
caused by anthropogenic activity , dumping of pottery and
othe rmaterials, disturbance of the soil, caused by human
activity. If you have an Iron Age ditch or a Roman ditch
infilled by material like that, that will lead to a change
in the magnetic field. When we survey we walk up and down
with the sensor, passively measuring the changes in the magnetic
field, measured in nonoTesla. A site plot from Wedna? or Jaborambla
a sand hill in the Nile Delta. Its a big sandhill , pleistocene
sand , that protrudes above the natural deposits of the Nile Delta.
It was used in the Tornate? period and the Roman period as a cemetary.
We have a series of traverses that we collected, measuring the
changes in the magnetic field. We measur ethem in grids, stick
them together to make a composite of all the data, so we see
the changes in nT across the site.
We see a difference between brick and the surrounding dry sand.
There are also bipolar anomalies, black and white specks.
These are caused by a mudbrick gallery , or a falcon gallery
where they would have mumified and left different types of
wildlife, birds mainly, to the dead. Each of the dots represents a
cut and shut coffin. They used hard-fired ceramic jars or slipper
coffins , because they are shaped like slippers. They put the
body inside, they seal them with an impression of the person
in the hole of the slipper. The bipolar anomalies are caused
by the hard fired ceramics , gone above its Curie Point so a
very strong magnetic signature from them.
Similarly kilns like this brick kiln in the south of Italy.
The plot shows something 4mx5m ,it was excavated and proven to be
a brick kiln , with remains of the bricks in. It gives that signal
because its been repeatedly fired. Also features built of
volcanic material can also give that sort of response in a magnetometer
survey. This is an ampitheatre, a temple and othe rstructures
in central Italy, built of tuffa, a compressible volcanic ash that is
then cut inti blocks and used for constructing buildings. You see
it around Rome . It hard rock now but originally soft, but heated above that
Earth Resistance Survey, this one a Martin Clark meter , wires out
and instument in the hand. Take readings , untangle the cables
and start again, as it was in the 1950s. More complex these days.
But still measuring the potential between probes, on passing
So 4 probes, a pair of potential probes and a pair of current probes.
Its rapid and efficient, the width of the probes is .5m which is really
set for use in the British Isles, with shallow plough soils.
Similar but also 2 remote probes with the system, as this is Belgium wher ethey
plough down to 1m, the current is not passing deep enough to
find objects that deep. Like magnetometry we collect data up and down
in hte grids. The magnetometer and ERS , collect a string of numbers, use
a solid state memory . When you download the data you have to say
how you collected them, get that wrong and it will be a sort
of random number generator. So you have to have accurate correct grid and how
you collected the data is paramount. 1 reading per station
, plot the grids together and look at the result.
We also use resistivity tomography or ERT, wher ewe use the ER principal
but where we want to collect a profile of readings thru the ground.
Ground, 4 probes, take a reading which is somewhat representative at
half the depth of the probe gap. A lot of caveats with this
, all resistivity readings are taken on the notion that the subsoil
is homogenous , ie the same. We know its not the same. Esssentially you
are then modelling the data to what you think the results are telling
you of what is underground. So with probes set 1m apart, and you
start again but this time doubling the probe separation, thus doubling
the depth for the readings. Repeat getting deeper and deeper. This allows you
to survey a profile of R readings.
The results are tapered appearance because if the probe is one position,
and you increase the spacing, the centre of your array will move
deeper and deeper into your profile. You don't get the data
righ to the edge of your survey line, which is frustrating.
A PA3 , so 4 probes, the crew take a reading, the organiser would shout,
the probes would be moved along . When you get to the end of the
profile the team would space out , to the double separation,
keeping increasing the separation again and again.
Occassionally we'd get the number wrong and we'd have to start all
over again. But usually it works well.
The North Gate of the Monta ? Enclosure at Karnak, east bank
of Thebes. Surveying to see if we could find remains of the Roman
settlement, which is apparent on the surface.
A tapering on either side and a profile of the site.
ERS is based on the water content , the grain size , sometimes
affected by the class inclusions, pottery and rhizomes in the
subsoil. This profile was 278m long in total. The high readings, the
purples and blacks via reds and oranges to yellows are high resistivity,
the low R are blue, 12 ohm-metres. The highs are 50 or 60ohm-m.
The depth of the profile is 16m. High R values about 4m deep,
that is the remains of the Roman settlement , below that are the very
low R readings , those represent the silts from yearly inundations until
they built the Aswam dam. 10m of Nile silt, then below that high R
probably pleistocene sands below the Nile sediments.
The theory goes that Karnak temple was built on an island, the Nile
has migrated and capped off by Roman settlemnt.
The third is GPR that looks like a pram or a box. There is an odometer
wheel , measuring the distance. There is a radar unit under and an
"etchasketch" on the top. It can work on soft surfaces, less limitations
to surface types compared to ER . You can also survey on hard
surfaces. As these tecniques get more robust and computing power
gets better, we get multi-channel GPR. Such as used in the
Stonehenge in the Landscape project, wheeling up and down,
16 sensors at a time, gathering a lot more data.
It works by propogating an electromagnetic wave throuhg the ground,
reflecting off objects underground, back to a reciver in the
same mobile box. For archaeology its an antena from 100MHz
through to 1GHz. The computer is measuring the 2-way time in
nanoseconds for the reflections off various buried objects.
Its firing off pulses at set intervals, based on the odometer, it might
be 5cm or 10cm, or 20cm, depending on what you are trying to look
for and the antenna frequency. The higher the f, the shallowe rthe
propogation is. So if you want 12 or 15m penetration, generally
you would use 100MHz. 200MHz for 6 or 7 m. 400 or 500MHs which is
the norm for landscape archaeology, usually 2 or 3 m.
1GHz used in Italy for the likes of frescos, very shallow,
very high resolution, using to look at different layers on a wall,
to help conservation of frescos etc.
We have an OFCOM license to use a GPR, because we are
broadcasting, if only to earthworms. On collecting radar data ,you
are getting a profile. Its more difficult to understand compared
to magnetometer or ER. You get some very strange shapes appearing
in GPR data. The reason is, the signal is reflecting off certain
objects and passing through other objects. The velocity of signal
through an object is dependent on the relative dielectric permitity ,RDP
of that material. Things with low RDP like thin air , dry sand,
signal passes through like a knfe through butter. High RDP
like salt water , a water table especially if saline, very wet clay
with cobbles in . That impedes the signal, the signal uses so much energy
to pass through, that it attenuates quickly. So like a mobile phone,
in a steel and concrete building, you can't make a call.
You go outside and suddenly you get a signal. Much the same but we are
broadcasting to earthworms instead. Until we can download the
data, its difficult to know what the radar velocity is, and hence know
the exact depth at which the signal is reflecting off objects.
We have to calcultae that later on, using the dataset. When you look
at GPR profile data , you see a lot of hypebola curves. That is because the
signal is not a thin laser-line going through the ground, but has a sort
of footprint, conical in shape. A fairly distant object may start
intercepting that cone when you are a few metres away from it, certainly
if its circular or ovate object of high RDP under the ground.
Things like pipelines, hard-fired ceramic field drains.
As you get closer and closer , the signal is taking less time
to go and return, so it appears higher and higher in your
profile . When you get to the apex of the curve, that is when the object
is directly below you and the least time for signal path.
Going away fro mthe object, its doing the opposite.
Very crazy data to try and deal with, interpreting what is actually
underground. You get some very weird shapes . The good thing is we can slice the
data and do other things with it.
Some examples from a few sites. 3 sites we'll look at.
Portus in Italy, its one of the largest research projects undertaken by the
uni. They set up a Mooc, massively online course via the internet,
the archaeology . A large geophys survey of the site started in 1998
finished in 2012, covering most of the site and the landscape to the south
between Portus and Ostia,the site is basically Rome's imperial
port. A massive port complex originally constructed by Claudius
added to by Trajan and others, to supply Rome with goods.
Our surveying discovered the canals, remains of harbour structures all
buried under the ground. One area , later , we've been surveying
and digging in the area of the Imperial Palace. Someone in the 19C called
Lanchari ? and then Gismondi? in the 1930s all said this
was an important part of the port. Its a palace, a really high status
building and requires further investigation. So why an imperial palace there.
They've been finding such amazing things, like opus septi ? glass for
wall decoration, so heading back in the thinking to it being an
imperial palce, not just an admin block for the port.
We have Lacharni's map , about 600m across, a large monumental
structure that is ship sheds for massive ships.
We've been doing remote sensing , for mapping of the site.
Some areas underground are accessible, such as store areas, with a hard
hat you can see inside. We've been laser scanning the outside of some
of the port structures , and paving and jetties. Each point in the image is
data, a set of dat ataken at a location, a point cloud. You can rotate it ,
fly throuhg it and othe rvarious things with it. We were also doing
geophys. ESR tomography profiles, smaller scale than the Egyptian
examples, 150m long, down 5 or 6 m. So a profile of the resistivity
then we've incorporated the topography, for 3D info.
You can collect a set of profiles from across the entire site, then like the
laser scanning, produce a point-cloud, a 3D xyz location and a resistivity
value of each point, for the palace and ship sheds.
Rooms and porticos and courtyards . So a 3D picture of what lies
underground. Combining ERS and GPR data , we can slice them
horizontally. Massive structures at Portus, walls that are 2.5m thick
, when it fell into disuse and deriliction, some of the rooms have
masses of infil, huge chunks of roman cement, some the size of a car.
So not a clean rural site where there is .5m of nicely stratified deposit
and so easy to see what is there. Portus is basically a massiv edemolition
site, within which we are trying to see individual walls in the data.
So with xyz data we can superimpose different data sets to
see what is going on , and can highlight and define more of the structures .
Some features in the resistivity match those in the GPR and a clearer
picture of the structural remains emergr. So we have a map of the ERT
values as a slice through the site. We've overlayed the interpretive
GPR onto it, the ERT is done at a much coarser level of detail than the
radar. Radar picking up walls, ERT tending to pick up large areas of rubble ,
the walls are big but not picked up too well on ERT.
Karnak, the capital of the pharoahs in various dynasties, the vlley of the
kings, valley of the queens, temples and mortuary temples on the
west bank of Thebes. The Colossi of Memnom at the funery
temple of Amenhoptep III, a massive temple complex with
4 courts. Also see a line of temples along the Nile flood plain.
We've been surveying at the temple of AmenhptepIII .
Just to the south of it, you can see on Google Earth,
virtually go to Luxor and see this, Birkit Harbour?
1.5km long at the desert edge, essentially a ritual harbour.
2 lines of mounds , A mounds and B mounds on the back edge.
Palace complex, pehaps also a smaller harbour and other
things associated with the ritual, from 2 of the dynasties.
We collected GPR profile of this area, across the mounds of Birkit
Harbour. The conditions for radar ar eoptimal there.
Very dry ,sandy sediment on the top , then changes to things like
mud brick , to silts and coarse grained sediment.
Radar propogates very easily and cleanly through very dry
material. We tried ERT here and we could not pass a signal ,
the current would not pass. We've succeeded on other sandy soils
in Egypt , but not here. There are bits of mica, quartz, and too
dry to pass the current.
You can see capping/terracing or revetment on the side of the mound,
the buildings associated with the palace complex. You can see tip lines
down the side of the mound. So not like making sand castles, piling up and
piling up, they were constructed using revetment.This brings home the
3D nature of combining geophys results with topography.
With uni of Upsala and Danial Lumberg? we used a drone or UAV
to produce a photogrammetric model of the mounds. To do that with
GPS you'd probably need 3 months, we did it in 4 days, 1.5km long
and 3 to 400m wide.
He brought it to Egypt in his rucksack, the first day of use the
military turned up , the week after we left, they banned UAVs.
So we had a unique window of opportunity to do this.
For the GPR we did 1m probe separation , as so large a site.
We sliced the data , to pick up the revetment.
You model the data on the topography and then slice it.
Start at the top of the data , slices farthe rdown and you start
to see features between the mounds, of mudbrick paving , so
not just sand between the mounds , but high amplitude response
of possibly mudbrick paving running between the mounds.
Come through to the harbour. Some of the site was excavated
in the 1970s and some in the 1990s so we have some ground-truthing
to what we were looking at.
Part of the uni degree is training students at local sites.
We used Old Sarum one year , near Salisbury. We went to the
English Heritage database and apart from a survey with Salibury Colllege
in 2005 on the side and to the east beyond the monument in the 1980s,
it had not been touched. No geophys at Old Sarum. So used it
for training purposes, as we'd done at othe rsites, in the theory
and practise and vocation of these techniques. A hill fort
, possible evidence for a Saxon burgh , possible roman occup[ation
within the curtiledge of the monument, certainly outside the monument
a ribbon settlement along a roman road. The foundation ringwork
of a castle and establishment of the city of Old Sarum withhte
cathedral, first built 1078, soon after struck by lightning
and rebuilt. The principal building at the sit ewas under Bishop
Roger in 12C and a lot of the structures you see today of the inner
bailey are down to him. Its mediaeval aspect was quite
a short-lived city and by 14C the cathedral down in Salisbury
was started. A lot else went to Salisbury including robbed out masonry.
In the 19C it was still returning 2 MPs a rotten burrough.
There was John Leyland ? description of the sit ein the 16C ,
exposurte of a tunnel on the north side of the outer bsilley.
Excavation by the Society of antiquaries looked at the inner bailley
of the castle. Post war excavations by Rowse & Mussey?
We looked at archive material for the site. Prior to D-Day
all th eouter bailleyy was filled with landrovers and waggons
for Dday. A ministry of Works map of the site 1944 which included
a hard-standing road and Nissan huts, so not just Iron
Age to mediaeval on this site, quite a WW2 presence associated with the
airfield to the east. So the student project was to understand
Old Sarum and Stratford sub Castle, and their position in hte
landscape using different non-intrusive methods of survey.
There is the castle, areas south of Old Sarum with a know romano-brittissh
settlement and potential maediaeval remains and othe rareas including the
water meadows below. Required preparations and permissions,
a section 42 licence even for geophys as the site is scheduled,
protected by statute. We tend to think of how things are going
in in time as well as space. So we think thematically, what archaeology
is visible and what is not. What can we map that is extant
and what do we need geophys to locate. The nature and depth of any deposits,
its not just a case of it being just chalk downland with shallow
stratographic deposits ove rthe site. The types or forms of the geoplogy
we will deal with, ho those change across the site. And finally the
scale and extent of deposits across the site, mapping the deposits from the
geophys. The surveying involved many elements. A total Station
theodylite measures horizontal and vertical angles , allows us
to grid-out survey the remains we can see. GPS survey , the plate on a
stick where we can survey things to a few cms , using the OS
grid system. Then all the geophys techniques we've been seeing tonight.
A new topographic survey of the visible remains of inner and outer
bailley, the cathedral . Uses a red laser that is conical , fire it at a
wall and it will locate itself. Some surveys you need a prism,
with htis it is direct reflection off the surface.
Using ThealLT ? on a laptop we can start building a plan
of the structural remains immediately as the survey
progtresses. In the fields using smart satellite GPS , the mobile
phone network to locate positions on the OS grid . Magnetometry
, GPR and ER and ERT surveying. Put out all the probes , program
the pc to take the readings , press a button on the pc, for the results.
For the ERT across the outer bailley , plus an entrance up
past the cathedral to the eastern side of the site. We expected to
see shallow stratographic deposits down on to chalk. The first readings were
for .5 to 1m down but we found 1 to 2m down low resistivity
deposit overlaying the chalk. So what was that , not just the hillfort and chalk.
So the survey continued , with magnetometry and interpretaion of
that. That showed a series of buildings running around
the outer bailley. 2 lines of buildings in one area , more clusters of
buildings , a possible precinct wall to the cathedral .
A large negative structure, suggesting masonry, buried in othe r
sediment of archaelogivcal material. There is a 19C map that
says there is a bishop's palace there and no one believed
that. But we have something in the magnetometry that showsa
structure at that location. When we've produced that data ,
a composite of data wepalce it in whats called a GIS.
That allows us to digitize, create polygons of interpretation drawing
of the results. So includes visible and invisible features in the
topography. There seems to be drainage ditches , not the 19C
herring-bone field drain pattern , perhaps for land farming improvement.
On the 1944 map was a road, and that appeared in the results,
a dipolar anomaly that is definitely 20C, on the north end of
the outer bailley, going to the Nissan huts.
Massive structures at the outer bailley seemingly masonry walls,
2 to 3m wide the structures being about 12m across.
There is a a square or gathering place. A structure on a differnt
alignment to all else , a later building, after the main city declined.
ER survey, the twin probe array, we comprehensively covered the
oute rbailley. The black high R of potential walls and the white
of low R ,potential ditches. We have the plan of the old city
under the green sward of the outer bailley of Old Sarum,
you walk around that area now and its just featureless grass.
Some of this may relate to earlier settlement. we just don't know
yet. A modern pipeline to the toiulets features well , a palimpsest
of mediaevel through to 20yearold pipeline. So we have to be careful
when we come to interpretation. So you go from an objective data
collection and process ing state to a more subjective interpretaion
state . The noise in one area is where the spoil of the previous
dig was distributed. The best material you can have to hand is
records of previous digs, plans, section drawings which help you
to ground-truth, checking results. A lot goiung on here but
superimposing dig plans so we can see the existing walls
of the cathedral there and then white negative features rather than dark
of walls . Similar to Duropus ? Syria , now much reduced,
where structures had foundations in gypsum , a type of sedimentary
deposit , the upper parts were mudbrick , the weather over 2000
years had dissolved the mudbrick and left with sedimentary foundations
surrounded by dissolved mud brick. When we went out there, we thought
magnetometry woiuld not work with sedimentary rock. We went over it
, and it did, because the surrounding deposit was dissolved mudbrick
which gave a sort of zero and the foundations cut out of that material
gives a sort of negative effect.
Then archaeological material dumped up against walls , all very
complex dataset. We did a bid of GPR stalled a bit at the moment
as its labour intensive especially when the grass is long.
A small area of the west outer bailley we conducted GPR , a number
of profiles. Topography applied to the data. A drop of 10 or 12 m
from the area next the ditch of the inner bailley and the outer
defences of Old Sarum. There are structures in the profiles, we are
formulating the idea there may be terracing. When constructing the
mediaeval town, making these structures, with routes or roads at each level .
At least 3 tiers to the city. Very deep is a curvy-linear feature , perhaps a
rubble filled ditch, the iron age and mediaeval defences are to
the west, that feature is inside those. So perhaps prehistory , as originally
a hillfort, underlying the city developement.
Geophys is a game for pessimists , if you start pessimistic you won't be disappointed.
With all 3 sets of dayta we have something to scrutinise , which isa rarity.
We've incorporated some of the results with Lidar from the air,
giving elevation points. The courtyard area corresponds nicely
wuith a dip in the lidar topography.
Q: Can you tell anything of the staus of various areas as I know from
mediaeval times, generally, the wealthy lived at the top ,so all
the dross flowed down to the poor sods below?
We find a lot of masonry structures in the outer bailley , there are areas where
we possibly have timber structures , or masonry with
lower quality buildings behind. In terms of slum areas , tha tis
difficult from such results. There is one area looking anomolous ,
not very nice, not the clarity of the facaded structures, perhaps a
crappy area. It really needs digging to distinguish status of
different areas. Status changes in city areas, what was posh pads in 13C , by
15C could be doss houses.
This year and last we went outside the main curtiledge of the moniment.
This was to pick up roads outside Old Sarum. It is a pinch-point
in hte l;andscape for north -south communication.
Where roman roads met just to the east of the site, a real point
of communication in the landscape.
We have roads near the entrance, and 2 phases of structure in the
magnetometer data. Lines and platforms, so perhaps roman and later
burgage plots. The settlement does not just stop at the monument
curtiledge. In the ERS we found roads including one running round
to go into the monument. We managed to map and match thos ewiht
Rusty & Raths digs results. A lot of comparative analysis can go on
between old excavation plans and modern geophys.
We surveys a field , including a lynchet , sent off the
results just last month. Is it a mediaeval lynchet , headland created
by plough activity over a long period . But it does not look
right for that as some goes up onto the earthworks of the
monument. We are wondering if it is Civil War defence, to
make the southern edge of the monument defensible
where the road comes up from Salisbury. So we think ther eare 2m
of deposits available in the outer bailley area , can create a plan
of the city, more than just a cathedral and few timber buildings.
A complete city with a population of thousands, including external
to the monument. The plan is to extend, over the next few years,
to the south and west to the Avon where there is a known Roman crossing.
From the fisrt OS map and a pre-OS earlier map
there is a city wall and hollow-ways and earthworks on the roads.
We walked the area in June and there seems to be lime-mortar
walls projecting from one of the lytchets, perhaps medieaval.
We may want to investigste that possible city wall.
Are thos esurveys on www?
Not the Old Sarum results yet. We report to EH at the end of each
season. We are hoping to set up a website for this project soon.
To Duncan Brown ,in the audience, are such English Heritage received reports
Yes, research reports should be downloadable.
We'll also put them on this future website, they are meant to
be available to people .
What about earlier reports?
We've done 3 seasons. For earlier reports you'll have to go to the
journals, with no geophys. So the J of the Society of Antiquaries for the
1910s digs, and Wiltshir eArchaeology Magazine for the later,
they're not publically available.
For resistivity surveys, do you have to chooose your weather , or
time of year, a bit like crop-marks, an ideal time.?
The biggest problem is the change of the seasons. If you start a
survey in march, do half of it, go away fr 6 months , conme back .
Because of cheanges i nthe subsoil, the rangs of values will
change and may not be easily resolvable. You want to start and
finish in one go. If its really wat and a pooling of water o n the
surface that is no good as the current will pass directly across.
Same in GPR as it will reflect the signal back. Some moisture in
the air, a bit of drizzle can help ERT. So choosing early
morning with a bit of dew on the grass is helpful for
earth resistance. You only need to touch the surface with the probes
If you did a magnetic survey, and came back in 100 years, would you
expect to get the same basic results, although the Earth's fieeld will
I'd expect the same basic results. What we are doing is not so
highly scientific , a change by hal;f a nanoTesla is something and nothing.
The biggest issue is drift. If you stripped out all the modern
material on a site. We just surveyed a fort at Chislebury Camp in
Wilts, the complete range of the archaeology is about +/-0 .5 nT.
For that situation th emain problem was drift in the Earth's filed
being more than that in hte course of a morning. Having to
rebalance the instrument every grid or couple of grids to
counteract that. When processing the data you have to often
use something called zeroing traverse. Take the values along a
traverse and set the mean to be zero.
With Earth field change, starting a grid with a mean of zero
and end with a mean of 2, that is known as drift , apply
a zeroing tracverse to bring all the dataset back into range.
So less a question of coming back in 100 years effect,
more the day to day,hour to hour change in the natural field of the Earth.
It may be change due to solar storms or due to weather .
We went to Belgium to do a survey and could not do anything
for 3 days, trying to balance the instruments. On the news
that evening mention oif the biggest solar storm of the century.
I notice on the south England map of sites, you didn't
have Caliber, The Roman town near ?. Any plans to do surveys
of tht roman town?
Not at the moment , we bit off more than we could chew with
Old Sarum and sub-castle. We should go farthe rafield.
Perhaps Wilton .
Do you know anyone he fuses different datasets together in a
mathematical form. I've done some of this agregating
and fusing into a more competent model. Do you know
anyone who does that?
The main example we wish to flag up to the students ar e
basic visualisation , camparing results, using red,green ,blue
channel results in sonmethong like a GIS. It usually
looks like someone has been sick all over it. It highlights
#where true colours come through, where the data correlates.
I find it like looking at one of those magic pictures, horrible.
Another method is that by the Austrian Nieubaur of the vienese
school over there. Norma;istaion of data between 0 and 1
, dispensing with hte notion of it bweing a particular dataset
and then adding,subtracting or multiplying values together.
That shows up well , for me, when adding sets that correlate.
It occurs to me , with Baysian statistics , you can build in your
established knowledge? the big challenge in geophys is signal to
noise ? you could probably discriminate any structures more
reliably, your piuctures are coarse and noisy?
There is possibility for that. I've seen a Baysian stat paper, but for me
there is a slight issue. With the likes of magnetometers you have a ceiling
, a set range and if in your measurements you're hitting that ceiling,
I think thay may prove difficult. I think with GPR and resistance
, there is a ceiling but you never hit it, to go over ranger means a substantial
increment. THere should be ways of stripping out that noise a lot
more. We of course use standard data processing tecniques , like geoplot?
to remove some noise , but with so much modern material like Old Sarum .
You could strip out the known quantity , say a 20C military road ,
through the site, how can we strip that out.
With 3 datasets it would be noce to bring them together , statistically ,
into one dataset, that is better than the 3 individual ones?
Data fusion has been really happening over the last 5 years?
I think its possible, matter of time and tyhe knowledge to apply it ,
to get a clear dataset.
Are they robotisizing the physical surveying instead of pacing
over the ground?
Not other than the multiple-sensor array where you press a button
There will still be people walking all those miles and miles?
Yes. Or you have the multiple sensors set on a tractor or quad bike ,
so collecting data but sat down.
But there is motorised GPR on a 4 wheel vwhicle?
Yes, takes out the walking element of it.
Can you use the equivslent of a sonar , using sound to find out what
Terrestrially they use seismic data . The NOC are the best to
say about that, they use seismic off shore and on-shore. Essentially
hitting a plate with a hammer and it measures frequencies via a set of
geophones. not used much in archaeology . Its supposed to be more
sensitive detector mechanism . Analogue seismic gives analogue
outputs , then requiring interpretaion, not the sort of layouts
we get usually. The responses look messy to an archaeologist.
The report to EH , will they act on that, do some digs, to prove
Not excavate as that destroys the archaeology, it will inform them on
sitr emanagement. If there is an area they did not know there was
underlying structure, they can manage it differently.
To excavate is to destroy , but the custodians have a duty
of care . There has to be very good reason to go and stick
a hole in the ground.